Late '67 G15CS questions

[BillTS3]

Hi,

New member here. I just picked up a late '67 G15CS, G15CS/123594, actually titled as a '68. The machine is mostly complete, with matching numbers on the frame and engine. Gearbox has a 5-digit serial, as I've seen on other 67-68 AMC bikes.

I've got some questions about this particular bike.

1)The chain guard is chrome, rather than black. I was under the impression only M2s and some CSRs had chrome chain guards

2)The rear mudguard looks like an M2 mudguard, except bobbed a bit in the back. the main section is two pieces, lapped and welded just ahead of the rear of the seat. There are at least ten smaller pieces welded to this main assembly - reinforcing plates at attachment points, a reinforcement spot-welded to the inside rear of the mudguard where it had been 'bobbed', side gussets for hand rail attachment, even a channel for the tail light wires. The whole assembly was chromed. The seat has a tab at the back, matching a bolt in the mudguard. I assume this type of mudguard would not have a loop, relying on the seat and two handrails (lifting rails?) for rear support. Front attachment appears to be a clip bracket over a frame cross member, and two tabs at the front (broken off) that must attach to the frame via brackets. Has anyone seen this type of fender?

More about the bike:

The front mudguard and stays are missing. I would assume a chrome front to match the rear, similar to my Ranger. Headlight and ears are missing - previous owner had converted to a Bates headlight mounted to the lower yoke via the pinch bolts. Fuel tank is the 2.4 gallon with the bumps for the badges and the quick-release cap. Tool box is missing. Tail lamp assembly was replaced with a small round lens in an alloy housing. I think this bike would get the '67-style black steel assembly, rather than the '68-style alloy piece. I've searched the web for late CS pictures, but the only ones that sort of jibe with what I've got are ape hanger CSRs. Could be that a PO installed these items, or these items were thrown on the bike at the factory to push them out the door - I know only a few hundred were built after this one.

Any help in finding out about this bike would be greatly appreciated


Here's a picture:


Bike is in better shape and more complete than my Ranger was, so I feel confident I can do it justice. The fender is just placed on the tire in this pic, and some pieces are not shown. A P11A seat, fender and loop are also in the picture - thrown in for good measure.

[Rob Harknett]

The 1968 model year started production Sept 1st 1967, 1968 models would had been on sale at and after the 1967 motor cycle show.
The G 15 CS was discontinued Oct 1967. You say the bike is titled 1968, does this mean that is the date of registration?
If you need to know exactly when the bike was made to confirm if its a late 1967 or one of the last made in 1968, the club dating officer can assist.

[BillTS3]

Here in the States, bikes were often titled by the year in which they were sold. In many states, especially in the South, titles weren't issued for bikes, so there was no MSO (Manufacturer's Statement of Origin) to send to the DMV (Dept of Motor Vehicles) for title issuance. My Ranger, for example, is also titled as a '68 (despatched 15/10/68, but likely sold in December). As the individual states adopted uniform title rules (many done with the change over to the 16- or 17-digit VIN), bikes previously untitled were given a title the next time they were sold, usually accompanied with a Bill of Sale, seller's Affadavit, and an inspection by a police officer or DMV official to verify the identification of the bike.

I don't have to go through this, as the previous owner had the bike titled in 1972, as a '68 Matchless, even though my research says the bike was built in 7/67.

I will still call the G15 a '67 and the Ranger a '69.

I would like to know if anyone has seen a fender like this on a CS or CSR, or if anyone has pics of a G15 or 33 in the 123xxx to 124xxx number range?

[BillTS3]

I've decided to use a chrome CS fender for the rear. I've come to the conclusion that the fender on the bike was installed by the dealer to replace a fractured alloy fender. I have not seen an intact fender on a bike that has been heavily used.

On another note, I've been taking the bike apart, taking a few pictures and sorting bits to be cad plated, re-chromed, painted, or replaced. I finished the chassis and started on the engine yesterday. Cleaned off the head and cylinder with no issues. looks like .020 over on the bores will clean up the cylinders very nicely, and the valve guides look good.

Primary was a different story. I soaked the screws overnight with PB Blaster, and still would not budge. I even broke the blade on my Snap-on screwdriver socket. To prevent damage to the cases, I decided to drill out the cheesehead screws. After drilling all 14 screws and an hour of careful prising, this is what I found:

Got the nut and rotor off - it should actually clean up pretty nicely. I've got the clutch spring nuts soaking. Hopefully, they'll come free.
Could be worse

[robcurrie]

Did you get this machine in New York just after Hurricane Sandy, because to get that much water in it must have been submerged? There are only a couple of small holes in the primary where water could drip in, but there should be enough oil in there for it not to cause corrosion.

Have a look in the transmission and hold thumbs it doesn't look the same!

Rob

[Matchless_Mayhem]

Hello and welcome...

Nice to see another project/restoration in progress. You sure the bike wasn't originally used by the US Navy/Marine Corps... slight water ingress to the primary there?!

Good luck with the work and keep us posted.

[John Donne]

That is not a P11A Ranger 750 dual seat but the original dual seat for that year of 1967. It may look like it is, but the two front brackets push down and bolt onto the top frame stud that holds the front and rear sub frame together. Those dual seats are now a rare item. The P11A Ranger 750 dual seat is a different item, having two studs on the base for a pillion strap, and a bracket to hold a featherbed frame bush to connect with the right angled nose peg on the Ranger 750's frame. The front and rear mudguards are chromed plated steel. The front wheel mudguard is a 21 inch item, on a 19 inch wheel for mud clearence. The rear uses a 400x18 tyre with a Dunlop WM3 rim. The front is a Dunlop 19 WM2 rim. The spokes are thicker that the standard items used on the Featherbed framed models.
The engine uses two Amal 930 Concentircs, with a wedge type aircleaner, with a Lucas 4CA CB and a 54418910 A/R unit. These self distructed after about 1000 to 2000 miles so use either 54425657 A/R or fit a Pazon or a Boyer ignition unit with the 6v ignition coils. The ignition coils are the Lucas MA12 fitted on a bracket 033008 that bolts behind the oil tank or between the oil tank and tool box. This bracket falls apart after a few miles, and fractures into small pieces, so use the Lucas 17M12 or small thinner coils to stop that bracket from fracturing and dropping into the road due to the weight of the larger heavy Lucas MA12 coils. Look for a bracket 033058, as this is for the ignition switch bracket, that bolts to the top frame stud that also attaches the dual seat. It has one larger and one smaller hole on a small slightly bent flat and founded piece of metal. The rear underside of the dual seat has a large T piece at the back that bolts to the rear mudguard, with a bolt and domed nut. The colour is Candy Aplle red, with silver lining on the petrol tank, and the battery box uses a spacer and stud arrangement to attach it to the frame. The front forks have the longer stauntions, and dampers, and all the rest is as per the Norton Atlas and 650 internal. The front forks should have gaitors and no clips to hold them onto the forks, and the handle bars are the same as fitted to the first P11 single seat series. A road test of this later coil ignition bike but an N15CS was published in Motorcyclist April 1968 on page 31. The carbs are 30mm ones and not 1 3/16 as shown in this road test. There was also brochures issued by the Berliner Motor Corporation for th later N15CS, and G15CS machines. These were published with silver covers and black and white internals. The rear number plate is the same used on the all the export G15CS models from October 1963 onwards and uses the Lucas 679 domed rear light unit. The Zenor diode uses the round heat sink plates, with an alloy spacer between and the later strengthened head steady stay. The headlamp brackets are the same as the Atlas and 650. The front mudguard and stays are the same as RE mark 2 Interceptors. Simple really.

[John Donne]

The export 1967 Matchless G15CSR did not have ape hangers but they were the export handlebars bars fitted to the export Norton Manxman, G12CSR, 650SS, Atlas, and later Norton Commando's. They were not thrown together but a properly built machine. The rear chainguard is painted black, and the only chrome would have been used on the mudguards, handle bars, and the wheels. All the G15CS models from 1963 to 1968 used the same type of handlebar as fitted to the single seat P11.
There was another member a while back that posted pictures of his export 1967/8 dispatched Matchless G15CS that was supplied by a London dealer. Most of what you have asked has already been posted on this forum.
The G15 Mk2 had handle hold type loops on the rear mudguard, and the later G15CS used a rear frame loop to attach the rear mudguard to the top of the rear sub frame. There is also a small bracket that attaches to the lower rear engine plate and bolts to a single hole in the bottom of the rear mudguard. It used two different sizes of washer to accumplish this. Get the parts book, The Master Parts Book 1966-1967-1968, and it will supply all the part numbers and answer most of what you have asked. The G15 Mk2 used allot of different parts to the G15CS, and even the export G15Mk2's as supplied to the Berliner Motor Corporation, used those so called ape hangers or to me export highhandle bars.

[BillTS3]

That is not a P11A Ranger 750 dual seat but the original dual seat for that year of 1967. It may look like it is, but the two front brackets push down and bolt onto the top frame stud that holds the front and rear sub frame together. Those dual seats are now a rare item. The P11A Ranger 750 dual seat is a different item, having two studs on the base for a pillion strap, and a bracket to hold a featherbed frame bush to connect with the right angled nose peg on the Ranger 750's frame. The front and rear mudguards are chromed plated steel.

John, thank you for the replies. The seat in plain view in the picture I posted is actually the G15CS seat, with the two front forked tabs to fit into the bolt assembly between the main frame and rear subframe, and the tab off the back to bolt to the center of the rear mudguard (fender for me). The P11A seat is better seen in this picture:

The seat had been recovered in tan leather, and you can see the rear of the seat under the clear parts bin. It is definitely a P11A seat, with the two studs at the back corners to mount to the arched brace on the fender loop. The P11A mudguard is chrome, but fractured and pitted, and the loop is missing one tab - obviously shaken off at some point.
This is the right shape for a Ranger seat, though not quite the correct cover:

Ranger parked between a 19S and N15CS last month

In the two days since I split the primary, I've split the crank case, dissembled, cleaned and reassembled the crank, and sent off the crank, new pistons, cylinder, head and new valves to the machine shop for a re-valve, bore and dynamic balance.

Any thoughts on BF? My thoughts are for 78%. I did 84% on the Ranger, and am quite happy with the vibration level on it - it only gets a bit rough above 75 MPH
In the next week, I plan to bead blast the primary and crank cases, and take the transmission apart.

Only piece with water seems to be the primary. Engine and trans were both very good inside, with a bit of oil still sloshing around the bottom.

I'm still looking for a tool box - seems many of these were tossed back in the '60s. I see covers are being reproduced, but not the inner part.

[John Donne]

There were two inner battery covers for the G15 series. The first one had a right angle tab welded to the top of the tool box, and the oil tank had a straight bracket that bolted to the frame. The reason being that in 1966 the dual seat changed to a much more slimmer type so the oil tank and tool box were then pulled in to be more under the rear sub frame. The oil tanks top mounting bracket was bent at a 90% angle to pull in so it fitted under the frame more.The difference is obvious when looking for a replacement battery box, the one you require would therefore be the one with out the welded on tab on the top of the tool box, and just a hole that would take a bolt, two washers, a spacer and a nut, to bolt it to the underside of the subframe channel. Try Baxter Cycle in the USA, Walridge Motors Canada,or Russell Motors in London for the inner tool box assembly.
The balance factor for the Atlas engine as recommended by Paul Dunstal was 84%, the 650 motor was 70% and the Commando was 52%. The lower number being because that engine was rubber mounted.
There are three types of rear mudguard for the P11A series. The short alloy one for the P11A, the short chromed one for the P11A Ranger, and the longer chromed or 035003 rear mudguard-steel-short unfinished, and 035004 rear mudguard-steel-short-chromed.
The P11A Ranger 750 dual seat complete was 035038, and the frame to dual seat bracket was 035006. The P11A Ranger 750's swinging arm pivot plates are of a different design to the earlier P11A frames. R/H is 035001 and L/H is 035002. The earlier P11A series dual seat was made from fibre glass, and it had two small studs molded into the dual seats base, that then were attached by a nut and washer to the rear mudguard loop. The Ranger 750 had a metal pan dual seat, with a big flat bracket that bolted to the underside of the dual seat, and then bolts to the top of the rear suspension units. The top bolts were then changed from the earlier shorter series type, and they then were the to become the same length as the lower shock bolts, as the top bolt needed to be longer as it now encorporated a spacer. The dual seat now being slimmer and the bracket also being slimmer there was a neeed for a spacer to be added. A small point but many owners do not know of such a modification to the later 128646 to 129145 dispatched series of P11A Ranger 750's. All the original P11A Ranger 750 dual seat had the Norton logo in gold applied to the rear end or back of the dual seat. It is the same size and configuaration as 035039 or the petrol tank transfer. I have four P11A Ranger 750's and i have researched them very extensivly.